Overtures Committee Says No to Study Committee on Women's Roles
By a vote of 40 to 34 (with two abstentions) the Overtures Committee rejected Overtures 5 and 10 to the 37th General Assembly this afternoon. Both overtures asked that a study committee be formed to consider women’s roles in PCA churches.
According to the overtures, “the PCA has struggled with the question of how women in the local church are to exercise their God-given gifts within the framework of the Book of Church Order (BCO).” The overtures also state that “many PCA churches are uncertain about how to use appropriately God’s gifts among the many capable women within the membership of those churches” and that “in many PCA churches those gifts are under-utilized.”
Earlier this year, Susquehanna Valley Presbytery (Pennsylvania) and James River Presbytery (Virginia) both overtured the Assembly “to authorize the moderator to appoint a study committee representing the diversity of opinion within the PCA to study and report to the 38th General Assembly.” The overtures were later amended to require the committee to make its report into the form of a pastoral letter. That letter would have addressed four questions:
(1) What sorts of roles may women fill in the life of the church?
(2) What are some models of local church practices that have developed as ways of employing the gifts of women in the lives of their congregations that might be exemplary and encouraging to other local churches?
(3) What elements of organization and accountability to ordained leadership can be commended to PCA churches that are consistent with the BCO?
(4) Does our BCO unnecessarily hinder achieving the best utilization of the gifts of PCA women in light of the teaching of Scripture?
The debate over these overtures was long and impassioned. Ruling elder David Snoke of Pittsburgh Presbytery, appealed to commissioners, saying that churches are confused, that women’s roles is an issue, and that in the absence of pastoral advice it’s an issue that will be resolved by discipline.
Greg Thompson of Trinity Presbyterian Church in Charlottesville, Va., noted that the PCA has a diversity of practice, a diversity of perspectives, and therefore a lack of clarity. These are precisely the conditions, Thompson stated, for which a pastoral letter is intended.
David Coffin spoke for many in the majority, saying that in his opinion, it is implausible that [the PCA] is struggling with the use of women’s gifts. “There’s a plethora of material on this issue,” Coffin said. Fred Kuhl of the Potomac Presbytery agreed, saying that the overtures’ arguments were unpersuasive. And David Jarstfer from Westminster Presbytery (Tennessee and Virginia) added, “As elders we’ve got to shepherd our people. … Let’s be elders. Let’s do the work.”
Coffin later added that “we’ve heard speech after speech insisting there’s not clarity or unity.” But the means proposed, he argued, would not provide the desired ends. The study committee/pastoral letter, “will not provide unity. It will not settle or clarify the subject. People who had different views before will have different views after. This may make matters worse.”
Today’s recommendation of the Overtures Committee will be reported to the General Assembly later this week, and commissioners will vote on whether or not to accept it. A minority report may be presented to the Assembly as well, according to commissioner E.J. Nusbaum.
Comments
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Bethnee Haury
Sonoma, CA
Rules -- Legalism? Or, the Glory of God. "What would Christ do?" Would He say "Paul's assessment is correct in regard to the role of women in the Church."? What is the fear within the Presbytery?
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Sheryl
North Carolina
It is achingly sad to me that the denomination I love refuses to look at an issue that I struggle with nearly every Sunday as I try to reconcile the gifts God has given me with a church that does not recognize them. I am in tears.
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Charlotte
honest question: were there any women involved in this discussion?
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Mike McLaughlin
Albuquerque
The answer is no to Charlotte's question. But it is not possible for women to serve on a committee of commissioners when they are all elders and elders in the PCA have to be men. However, the minority report that is coming is asking for two advisory members for the study committee that could be women.
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Mary Dunn
Morganton, NC
Thank you, men, for your ruling in this area. As was mentioned, there is a lot of material concerning the roles of women in the church (thank you Susan Hunt, Ligon Duncan, and others). As I look around the PCA I see many examples of women using their God-given gifts. Thank you again, men, for leading and guiding according to God's Word.
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Martine Extermann
Tampa, Florida
In response to Mary and about the decision of the GA, there is material and past decisions, but the debate progresses and arguments refine. The true question is "do we read first hand material from both side of the debate?" Mary cites only people supporting one side of the issue. Have we read equalitarian literature as well? We would never have gotten rid of segregation if people hadn't started reading each others. An interpretation may seem "obviously biblical" if we always heard it commented the same way, but if we are serious truth seekers, let us read both complementarian and equalitarian commentaries in the primary text.
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Jim Pakala
Presbytery of Philadelphia
Whether a study committee emerges or not, I regret that MNA reversed course and now considers lay chaplaincy an oxymoron. (It didn't help that the OPC reps on our joint Chaplain Commission said they could not tolerate any other view, though that didn't force MNA to hold this view.) I hope that Sessions or Presbyteries still can approve and certify laity (men or women) as chaplains in certain situations where sacramental ministry and preaching are not required. E.g., it is essential that women's prisons, children's hospitals, obstetrics units, etc. have some female chaplains. Lay chaplaincy is not an oxymoron unless ordination is required, as in the military, where deployment necessitates sacramental and homiletical ministry.
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Shelly Timbol
Saint Johns, Florida
This is what it feels like to have shepherds with power "Lord it over the sheep". If only the bible were the only document held in esteem and it alone searched for answers to the question of how God wants his daughters to minister. But, no the BCO seems to hold equal or sometimes even more authority in the decision making processes at the ultimate leadership levels of the PCA. "Reformed and always reforming...?" No, not if it involves "elder brothers" loving well their younger sisters. Thank you to all the men who tried to open this discussion. If the PCA continues to resist seeing the giftedness of her women, the denomination will suffer greatly. This is very sad. But, God does not need the PCA, God's work will prosper.
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John Hendrickson
Middletown NJ
I just don't get it. What is happening out there? Are sessions telling women to go sit in the corner and keep quiet? Are they telling you not to call on or minister to the sick or lonely? Are they telling the older women not to teach the younger women? What is it that makes you so sad?
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Donna
Jackson, MS
I see this decision as one of humility where the commissioners don't want to Lord it over churches on this issue. I came from a denominstion that made "top down" decisions about practice in the local churches, and it was not compassionate. It wrecked the values and harmony of local congregations. These men trust you and your elders to exercise good, sanctified common sense and act on mutual love and respect in the ways you minister. It's like a good marriage. You want to work things out, not legislate them.
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Timothy Rott
Gulf Breeze, Florida
What is needed is a clear understanding of what the Bible says about the roles of men and women. What roles or ministries has God given to each? This is clearly discovered in the Bible. However, our culture is impacting the church rather than God's Word. God has created us male and female. It was God who created me male, and as a creation of God, it is my responsibility to understand the role for which my Creator designed me. If we filled our biblical roles, then we would be the church in Ephesians 4; growing together into "one mature man," rather than debating "what" each is to do or be. Seems to me that man had the same problem in the Garden.
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Deb Welch
Newark, DE
While I agree with the BCO and what Mary stated above in terms of what has been laid out for the specific limitations on women's roles in the church, I had hoped for this study to go forward in order to capture the various applications, best practices and approaches being taken in the local churches.
Of particular interest to me personally as a single woman, to many of the single mothers that I know, and to the widows is #3 --- What elements of organization and accountability to ordained leadership can be commended to PCA churches that are consistent with the BCO?
In this regard and others, I think the study could have been very constructive and feel just a little disappointed. I do hope that our denom isn't perceived as not having a serious concern for all of its covenant members.
Of particular interest to me personally as a single woman, to many of the single mothers that I know, and to the widows is #3 --- What elements of organization and accountability to ordained leadership can be commended to PCA churches that are consistent with the BCO?
In this regard and others, I think the study could have been very constructive and feel just a little disappointed. I do hope that our denom isn't perceived as not having a serious concern for all of its covenant members.
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Sharon Whitley
Pensacola, Florida
There may be a plethora of material on this issue, as Coffin insists, but that doesn't mean it's being seriously read and considered by most men in this denomination .... Furthermore, Coffin is wrong to say that it's implausible that the PCA is struggling with the use of women's gifts.... This issue is not going to go away. It was raised last year. It's been raised this year. It will be raised next year. That should tell him and all others ... that this is in fact an issue the PCA is struggling with. Even the vote of the Overtures Committee was close: 54% opposed and 46% in favor of forming a study committee. More study may not be the answer, but this is not a fait accompli.
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Scott
Cary, North Carolina
This was the right decision for the peace and purity of the church, and good stewardship of our resources.
The Book of Church Order is not being followed by a few churches. It does not allow electing non officers as if they were (e.g. 'deaconess'), it does not allow refusing to ordain and install deacons, it teaches doctrine of ordination and installation whereby congregations receive the officers whom God has appointed for them.
The confusion or lack of clarity is coming from a very few churches who are violating our constitution- the longer they do so the more it emboldens others and adds to the confusion.
It is a matter of discipline to the constitution and the solemn vows church officers take to uphold the constitution of our church (Westminster Standards, Book of Church Order).
Involving un-ordained men and women in the local church is a responsibility of church officers...and members.
The Book of Church Order is not being followed by a few churches. It does not allow electing non officers as if they were (e.g. 'deaconess'), it does not allow refusing to ordain and install deacons, it teaches doctrine of ordination and installation whereby congregations receive the officers whom God has appointed for them.
The confusion or lack of clarity is coming from a very few churches who are violating our constitution- the longer they do so the more it emboldens others and adds to the confusion.
It is a matter of discipline to the constitution and the solemn vows church officers take to uphold the constitution of our church (Westminster Standards, Book of Church Order).
Involving un-ordained men and women in the local church is a responsibility of church officers...and members.
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Robert Wildeman
Fairmont, WV New River Presbytery
I am most distribed that the Overtures Committee has so much power. It seems to me that the PCA has gotten away from open discussion on topics that are of critical importance to the health and desire of the chuirch to be a Biblical, Christ glorifying church that recognizes that every believer and in the case of the GA every RE & TE has an equal voice. I hear people concerned that the church may go down the road that the PC US & USA did,but it seems to me tghat we are allowing a hand picked group on men on all the committees and commissions to lay out their direction for the churtch without giving every concerned person, including women, to have a voice in the discussion.
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Mark Schnitzer
Buffalo, New York
I am highly disappointed that the PCA is not commissioning a study as to women's roles in the church. There are many, many women that are gifted in the area of teaching, administration, mercy yet are hindered by narrow interpretations of set roles.
I know that recently I brought this issue up at a seesion meeting and the idea was tabled in order to keep "peace and purity" in the church. I feel that sometimes that thought, peace and purity, is bantered about in order to keep from discussing hard issues.
Being relatively new to PCA I was hoping that this body, known for it's insight and wisdom in so many areas, would not back away from an issue that would brought freedom and purpose and belonging to at least half of our congregants.
I know that recently I brought this issue up at a seesion meeting and the idea was tabled in order to keep "peace and purity" in the church. I feel that sometimes that thought, peace and purity, is bantered about in order to keep from discussing hard issues.
Being relatively new to PCA I was hoping that this body, known for it's insight and wisdom in so many areas, would not back away from an issue that would brought freedom and purpose and belonging to at least half of our congregants.
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Dawn
Ohio
I think that all elders should be told to read each piece of the Women in the Chuch core Curriculum. Susan Hunt empowers women to do many things--to be the hands of the Church. My experience is that most men do not read women's books--while most women read books about men and women to understand roles. Carolyn James's http://www.whitbyforum.com/
is also an excellent source to explore the role of women in the church. As a single women my gifts were only used when no one else was willing to step to the plate. When a man or married couple became available--I was quickly and harshly dismissed. Let us all expore women's gifts and how to be the Ezer or helpmate in the church. As a single women, I begged for the elder's protection and instead received only criticism. I praise God there are roles in the church I can't do.
is also an excellent source to explore the role of women in the church. As a single women my gifts were only used when no one else was willing to step to the plate. When a man or married couple became available--I was quickly and harshly dismissed. Let us all expore women's gifts and how to be the Ezer or helpmate in the church. As a single women, I begged for the elder's protection and instead received only criticism. I praise God there are roles in the church I can't do.
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Bill Lamkin
Panama City, FL
I'm glad this has been put to rest (for another year). the PCA is NOT a sexist denomination. We are Biblical. We may not understand all of the Bible, but we will follow what we understand.
May the PCA have peace from God as we serve the God of peace together using the different parts to make one beautiful body.
May the PCA have peace from God as we serve the God of peace together using the different parts to make one beautiful body.
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Lynda
Illinois
I find that as a woman in the church my gifts are pretty much fully embraced and I'm encouraged to minister within appropriate contexts (to women, kids, etc). But I've also experienced a separation (or divorce you might say) with the male elders and ordained leaders of the church - they leave womens' ministry to women and provide limited shepherding. And individaul women who are either unmarried or married to men who are not actively being shepherded are themselves shepherdless.
So, I don't think that the gap for women's roles is so much where we can do what we're not supposed to do by leading men and such, as it is for us to be better led.
So, I don't think that the gap for women's roles is so much where we can do what we're not supposed to do by leading men and such, as it is for us to be better led.
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Val P.
Alabama
My experience in the PCA is of churches from one end of the spectrum to the other. In some churches, a woman is expected to raise children. Period. In others, she can be all but ordained (and maybe ordained if the Presbytery turns their backs.) Praise God that most of our churches fall somewhere in between where all women can exercise all their God given gifts in good and appropriate ministries to help further the kingdom of Christ Jesus.
I seriously doubt that any pastoral letter will make much difference in any of the outer extreme churches. The only churches it might help would be those honestly trying to find their own church identity and looking for good ideas. To those churches, I'd highly recommend the books by Susan Hunt and Duncan Ligon. There are plenty of helpful materials in those books to start well.
I seriously doubt that any pastoral letter will make much difference in any of the outer extreme churches. The only churches it might help would be those honestly trying to find their own church identity and looking for good ideas. To those churches, I'd highly recommend the books by Susan Hunt and Duncan Ligon. There are plenty of helpful materials in those books to start well.
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Randall Bachman
Spring Texas
It is sad to me that the issue is somehow being viewed as a man-woman issue. The issue is authority of scripture, spoken clearly and unambiguously about the roles of men, women, called elders and deacons.
Even if the GA were to "study the issue" as though that has not been already done ad naseum, it will not change the simple fact that the Apostle of our faith spoke on the issue and Women are not to be pastors. And all these backdoor attempts to worm around this issue are simply dishonest. I am a man, and I am not called to preach either. So I find lots of ways to teach and contribute, and am blessed by these ministries. There are plenty.
There are churches that view the Bible as a wax tablet easily modified to suit the majority's fancy. If you can't submit to scripture, go.
Even if the GA were to "study the issue" as though that has not been already done ad naseum, it will not change the simple fact that the Apostle of our faith spoke on the issue and Women are not to be pastors. And all these backdoor attempts to worm around this issue are simply dishonest. I am a man, and I am not called to preach either. So I find lots of ways to teach and contribute, and am blessed by these ministries. There are plenty.
There are churches that view the Bible as a wax tablet easily modified to suit the majority's fancy. If you can't submit to scripture, go.
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Leslie Taylor
Colorado Springs
Randall Bachman: Thank you for your refreshing remark! Some one actually gets it!
What I don't get is why all these teary-eyed women and disgruntled men don't go join some other denomination--the sky's the limit if your looking for a denomination with a modern-American interpretation of the Apostle Paul. But can't we be allowed to have just one denomination in this country that actually takes serious the word of God--no even delights in the beauty of His creation order of the sexes?
If the PCA is seduced by the world's ideas of sexuality, where then do we go? We who embrace the scripture and the goodness of God to give us parameters for our own good, who love womanhood, and don't seek a loophole so that we can leave our homes pursuit of "ministy."
What I don't get is why all these teary-eyed women and disgruntled men don't go join some other denomination--the sky's the limit if your looking for a denomination with a modern-American interpretation of the Apostle Paul. But can't we be allowed to have just one denomination in this country that actually takes serious the word of God--no even delights in the beauty of His creation order of the sexes?
If the PCA is seduced by the world's ideas of sexuality, where then do we go? We who embrace the scripture and the goodness of God to give us parameters for our own good, who love womanhood, and don't seek a loophole so that we can leave our homes pursuit of "ministy."
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Daniel
SW Virginia
Amen! Leslie. The PCA was formed when faithful elders were driven from the denomination that gave them birth. If the new denomination drifts away from her foundations where will the faithful go? Must we start a new denomination every generation?
Take a look at the main-line Presbyterian denomination. It is radically declining. The PCUSA is losing as many members every year as make up the whole of the PCA. Most of these are leaving the church altogether. They are not going into any denomination...just into the world.
When a denomination abandons the sure and certain Word of God it is finished. This is not new. Just read the Old Testament and see what happen to the Church of the old covenant.
I'll close with a quote (as close as I can remember) from Os Guiness. "He who marries the spirit of the age will soon find himself a widower."
Take a look at the main-line Presbyterian denomination. It is radically declining. The PCUSA is losing as many members every year as make up the whole of the PCA. Most of these are leaving the church altogether. They are not going into any denomination...just into the world.
When a denomination abandons the sure and certain Word of God it is finished. This is not new. Just read the Old Testament and see what happen to the Church of the old covenant.
I'll close with a quote (as close as I can remember) from Os Guiness. "He who marries the spirit of the age will soon find himself a widower."
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Phil W.
Dayton, Ohio
If women are being denied legitimate roles in PCA churches, then we are failing to fully love half of the body of Christ, and all of us are the worse for it. I will become the father of a daughter later this year, and I am saddened to think that I'll be raising her in a denomination that won't even entertain a discussion about how to use her God-given gifts appropriately.
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Wesley Wilson
Fairfax, VA
Phil,
It's not that the committee is saying the church shouldn't consider the issue. They're saying the church shouldn't consider the issue again. This issue has been examined quite a number of times. If an overture can now be formulated that demonstrates that earlier considerations on the issue were flawed, I have no doubt the committee would embrace another examination. This overture, however, failed to even acknowledge that earlier study had been done let alone point out any potential flaws.
It's not that the committee is saying the church shouldn't consider the issue. They're saying the church shouldn't consider the issue again. This issue has been examined quite a number of times. If an overture can now be formulated that demonstrates that earlier considerations on the issue were flawed, I have no doubt the committee would embrace another examination. This overture, however, failed to even acknowledge that earlier study had been done let alone point out any potential flaws.
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Ken
Mississippi
A lot of this is begging the question. In what areas do some of our women feel limited?
What do PCA women want to do that they currently are not allowed to do?
Perhaps the answer to those questions would help further the discussion.
What do PCA women want to do that they currently are not allowed to do?
Perhaps the answer to those questions would help further the discussion.
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William
Florida
Some comments make it sound like women are 2nd class citizens in the kingdom b/c God has set some rules in place.
I, for one, do not think women are 2nd rate. They are gifted and, those who serve, are doing so very well.
is there a Biblical basis for a female office? if so, let's do it. If not, let's not invent something the Bible has not given us.
I, for one, do not think women are 2nd rate. They are gifted and, those who serve, are doing so very well.
is there a Biblical basis for a female office? if so, let's do it. If not, let's not invent something the Bible has not given us.
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Warren
SC
The committee correctly observed that a broad ranging study would do nothing to unify, and could only add to division. We are a confessional and connectional church with clear means of changing standards if the fathers and brothers are led to. The GA is ultimately a church court - not a general purpose research institute. Contrary to the assertion of some, there is no lack of biblical research into the role of women in the church and elsewhere in society. The question is how to evaluate and apply that research - and that has been done in our standards. If you want to change those standards, bring a specific overture to change them, citing your studies for support - and the overture will be evaluated in light of Scripture. If you want a broad based wide ranging study, why on earth don't you have your Presbyteries do it first?
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Tom
Vancouver, WA
One of our own PCA ministers has written an excellent book on the topic of roles of men and women: The Pauline Doctrine of Male Headship - James Bordwine. It has just been republished and I highly recommend it. We need not keep revisiting these issues over and over again as a result of cultural pressures to conform to the unbiblical ideas of the world around us.
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Chris R.
Presbytery of Philadelphia
God has given gifts also to women. What I experience is that some churches rather appoint 'not' qualified men then qualified women to committees in the church. This is wrong! Women should be able to work for the church if they are qualified! The solution is to have elders in charge to oversee and rule. There is a lot of essential work to be done in our churches - God wants us to use the best sources and workers for his church.
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Patrick Earl
Albuquerque
There has to be a clear definition as to the extent women can serve in in the local church and within the denomination. Serving cookies, teaching children, and running women's meetings under-utilizes their gifts. I'm not suggesting they be the pastor's or elders necessarily (I could make a case for that), but we need to move from the 1950's into the 21st Century. Overall the Body of Christ is way out of touch with reality. Some of the old men in the conference need to step dowm and let younger men have a chance to use their God given wisdom.
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Paul Sanders
Calvary Presbytery
Patrick. You said that "some of the old men in the conference need to step down and let younger men have a chance tu use their God given wisdom." Do you know the value of the wisdom of the "old men" you speak? I assure you that they bring far more to the table than us "young guys" of which I am one. And these men who for years went before us already lived through these very kinds of issues. Their choice was to not compromise the Scriptures in order to fit in better with the culture. I have known countless women in countless PCA churces who are exercising their gifts quite effectively in the church to the glory of God and in accordance with the Scriptures. If we fail to learn from the "old men then we will see again the pains they endured in years past.
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Buddy E
Georgia
This whole discussion reminds me of when my wife says I haven't been listening to her. And I tell her that we have already discussed that issue. The problem here is that we are not listening. Listening doesn't mean we change anything but we certainly need to clarify the manner in which we apply scripture in our current context. No one is trying to tear out pages of the Bible. The weaknesses in past study may not be the soundness or truthfulness of the doctrine but the way in which those documents and view have been applied. Listen - The majority of people are asking for clarity on how we do this NOT seeking to tear down our leadership structure.
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Jim Golden
Paxton, Il
This will always be a controversial discussion. However, it does seem that women are able to do every work that a man could do in the PCA. The exception is that God has set criteria for the offices of Elder/Deacon. My guess is that in some churches and presbyteries men are not living up to the task and some of their women believe that they can do a better job. Men let us be better Elders/Deacons. Let us empower our congregations to use their gifts (both men/women). MY final thought is that the PCA needs to be known as a GOSPEL centered denomination, and not the denomination that disallows women from being Elders/Deacons. In order for this to happen our women who wish leadership positions should see their valuable role of helpers to the ordained leaders of the church. God has outlined the plan for us.
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Henry
Alabama
Do we want to be Biblically correct or politically correct? I vote for Biblical.
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Warren
SC
RE: Chris R. from Philly Presby's comment.
Reading your note, it would seem you are arguing for a change in our standards - not a study committee, as these overtures were requesting.
Reading your note, it would seem you are arguing for a change in our standards - not a study committee, as these overtures were requesting.
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Donna
Jackson, MS
Let me add one other book recommendation to this discussion: Dan Doriani's fine book, "Women in Ministry." Dan tracks the Old and New Testament narratives involving women's rolls and uses the explicit doctrinal teaching of the New Testament to evaluate the rolls of women in Scripture.
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Denise
Mississippi
AMEN! to Jim Golden's comment!
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Ford Carrigan
Charlotte, NC
It has been my experience in the Church that men tend to need a title or public calling in order to take on a task or ministry. Women, on the other hand, see a need and dive right in and wholeheartedly fill the needs and lives of the church.
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Michael
Serving the Church in Iraq
I would be very interested to hear the answers to these questions from Ken in Mississippi above,
"A lot of this is begging the question. In what areas do some of our women feel limited?
What do PCA women want to do that they currently are not allowed to do?"
The current debate is about women holding the office of deacon or elder. These are the two roles that the PCA, in light of Scripture and our denomination constitution, has stated is to be held by men only.
However, it is clear that women were used by the NT church in a variety of ways (training other women, missions, evangelism, etc.). In this regard, the women of the PCA should not held back. But I wonder along with Ken, in what way do they feel limited? How are they not being untilized?
"A lot of this is begging the question. In what areas do some of our women feel limited?
What do PCA women want to do that they currently are not allowed to do?"
The current debate is about women holding the office of deacon or elder. These are the two roles that the PCA, in light of Scripture and our denomination constitution, has stated is to be held by men only.
However, it is clear that women were used by the NT church in a variety of ways (training other women, missions, evangelism, etc.). In this regard, the women of the PCA should not held back. But I wonder along with Ken, in what way do they feel limited? How are they not being untilized?
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Paige
PA
No one has brought this up yet here, but there is some ambiguity in the PCA re. women teaching Bible & doctrine to mixed company (e.g., adult SS, or extra church-sponsored classes). Many of us who arrive from "outside" must adjust to new limits, and we don't always know how to do this graciously or cheerfully. If a woman's studies and heart are oriented toward teaching adults, telling her that she may teach children can sound demeaning. And it isn't always the case that a woman who is a teacher is suited to be a teacher of women (nor is it always advisable to separate the Body for learning). Not that our experience should guide our exegesis; but our brothers should be aware that if we do need to adjust our sense of calling to this more restrictive setting, it will take some painful time.
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Mark Leone
Springfield, VA
The overtures were calling for clarity. Those supporting them can contribute to that end by being more direct about what is being requested. Numerous times in this forum alone, the question was raised: what are the women of the PCA being prevented by the BCO from doing?
For my part, the only answer I can honestly give to the question is that women are not permitted to be church officers.
Isn't this really the goal that many are seeking? Certainly, some commenters here have said as much. Asking the question repeatedly because you do not agree with the answer is not a process conducive to clarity, the stated goal of the overtures. It rather reminds me of Balaam asking God repeatedly whether he could or could not curse Israel.
For my part, the only answer I can honestly give to the question is that women are not permitted to be church officers.
Isn't this really the goal that many are seeking? Certainly, some commenters here have said as much. Asking the question repeatedly because you do not agree with the answer is not a process conducive to clarity, the stated goal of the overtures. It rather reminds me of Balaam asking God repeatedly whether he could or could not curse Israel.
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Linda
Illinois
Excuse me Mark, but the overtures were asking for clarity on several issues, which are:
(1) What sorts of roles may women fill in the life of the church?
(2) What are some models of local church practices that have developed as ways of employing the gifts of women in the lives of their congregations that might be exemplary and encouraging to other local churches?
(3) What elements of organization and accountability to ordained leadership can be commended to PCA churches that are consistent with the BCO?
(4) Does our BCO unnecessarily hinder achieving the best utilization of the gifts of PCA women in light of the teaching of Scripture?
The answer: "Women are not permitted to be church officers" doesn't actually answer any of these questions.
We can all agree that women ought not be ordained and still not have a clue as to what our answers would be for the above concerns.
(1) What sorts of roles may women fill in the life of the church?
(2) What are some models of local church practices that have developed as ways of employing the gifts of women in the lives of their congregations that might be exemplary and encouraging to other local churches?
(3) What elements of organization and accountability to ordained leadership can be commended to PCA churches that are consistent with the BCO?
(4) Does our BCO unnecessarily hinder achieving the best utilization of the gifts of PCA women in light of the teaching of Scripture?
The answer: "Women are not permitted to be church officers" doesn't actually answer any of these questions.
We can all agree that women ought not be ordained and still not have a clue as to what our answers would be for the above concerns.
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Sara V.
Illinois
I believe Ken and Michael that your questions aren't justified. It's not what women want to do or how women feel limited, but it's a matter of unscriptural rule. Christ never said that Man is boss and Woman is his assistant. We are equals in Christ, see Gal 3:28. The local church suffers when only male judgment is utilized in local church decisions.
We should be equally yoked in marriages as well as in church government, male and female with one master, that is Jesus Christ. Neither male voices nor female voices are sufficient alone. Our church rule is unbalanced and we can't move forward in this condition, but will continue to wander in circles in the wilderness.
I agree with Warren, "If you want a broad based wide ranging study, why on earth don't you have your Presbyteries do it first?"
Let's do it!
We should be equally yoked in marriages as well as in church government, male and female with one master, that is Jesus Christ. Neither male voices nor female voices are sufficient alone. Our church rule is unbalanced and we can't move forward in this condition, but will continue to wander in circles in the wilderness.
I agree with Warren, "If you want a broad based wide ranging study, why on earth don't you have your Presbyteries do it first?"
Let's do it!
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Bobbi
Florida
Sara V.,
Why aren't their questions justified?
As a woman, in the PCA, I'm curious, what position can we as women not have other than Pastor, Elder or Deacon?
I can teach a Sunday school class to women--I can teach a Sunday school class of children..Those are HUGE responsibilities in themselves, so why should I care if men are in the class for me to teach? I can be more open with women about my struggles and what God has taught me through His word as I've gone through those things.
I don't think women appreciate the roles and positions they do have, because they are so busy focusing on what they don't have, and that is a shame, as it stirs up strife and drama instead of contentment in serving our Lord.
Why aren't their questions justified?
As a woman, in the PCA, I'm curious, what position can we as women not have other than Pastor, Elder or Deacon?
I can teach a Sunday school class to women--I can teach a Sunday school class of children..Those are HUGE responsibilities in themselves, so why should I care if men are in the class for me to teach? I can be more open with women about my struggles and what God has taught me through His word as I've gone through those things.
I don't think women appreciate the roles and positions they do have, because they are so busy focusing on what they don't have, and that is a shame, as it stirs up strife and drama instead of contentment in serving our Lord.
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Mark Leone
Springfield, VA
Linda,
My point was that the BCO doesn't raise any hindrances to women applying their gifts in service, except for the restriction on holding church office.
In other denominations, if not our own, calling for studies has often been the beginning of a patient strategy for changing standards when the votes are not yet there. And I think that question 4 essentially takes a careful step clearly in this direction.
Working to change the standards when warranted is a fundamental principle of Presbyterianism, and ding so is not merely our right but our duty.
But even though I personally adhere to the standards on this issue, I would prefer a request to amend them over a request for a study. Since the former approach is more straightforward and involves constitutional process, I believe it is far more conducive to providing the clarity that all participants in the debate agree is needed.
My point was that the BCO doesn't raise any hindrances to women applying their gifts in service, except for the restriction on holding church office.
In other denominations, if not our own, calling for studies has often been the beginning of a patient strategy for changing standards when the votes are not yet there. And I think that question 4 essentially takes a careful step clearly in this direction.
Working to change the standards when warranted is a fundamental principle of Presbyterianism, and ding so is not merely our right but our duty.
But even though I personally adhere to the standards on this issue, I would prefer a request to amend them over a request for a study. Since the former approach is more straightforward and involves constitutional process, I believe it is far more conducive to providing the clarity that all participants in the debate agree is needed.
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Sue M.
Ohio
I'm not a part of your denomination, but belong to a Bible-based Anglican church where women serve in whatever role that God calls them to, up to the priesthood.
Here are some examples of leadership that don't require ordination and have been held by both men and women in our parish:
* Serve on vestry (similar to a Church Council or Board in other denominations)
* Director of Volunteer Ministries
* Director of Christian Education
* Youth pastor
Are these examples of roles/ministries that are considered off limits to women in the PCA?
Here are some examples of leadership that don't require ordination and have been held by both men and women in our parish:
* Serve on vestry (similar to a Church Council or Board in other denominations)
* Director of Volunteer Ministries
* Director of Christian Education
* Youth pastor
Are these examples of roles/ministries that are considered off limits to women in the PCA?
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Bobbi
Florida
Sue,
At our church, women serve in all of those capacities as well. Though none are ordained.
Heck they even hold leadership positions within the school.
We have women who serve as Missionaries, we have women who serve various positions, but NONE of them are Ordained.
And that is what this argument boils down to, they want to be ordained just like men are.
Who have women who teach women's bible study classes, we have women who teach children's during Sunday school, and during church training, we have women who go to visit others in when they are in the hospital, we have women that served on our Pastor Search Committee, so I honestly don't see what these women are complaining about short of being ordained.
At our church, women serve in all of those capacities as well. Though none are ordained.
Heck they even hold leadership positions within the school.
We have women who serve as Missionaries, we have women who serve various positions, but NONE of them are Ordained.
And that is what this argument boils down to, they want to be ordained just like men are.
Who have women who teach women's bible study classes, we have women who teach children's during Sunday school, and during church training, we have women who go to visit others in when they are in the hospital, we have women that served on our Pastor Search Committee, so I honestly don't see what these women are complaining about short of being ordained.
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Sue M.
Ohio
Bobbi,
I'm so glad to hear that your church supports women who are called to serve in the above ministries. That is wonderful! All of those things require the call of God on your heart -- not do it just because a guy can.
WRT to ordination, I know the pain of having it denied to both a woman and a man in our church because our Episcopalian bishop didn't want to have more orthodox priests in our diocese.
Fortunately, we now are a part of an Anglican denomination and instead of Deacon Nancy and Deacon Kevin we have Mother Nancy and Father Kevin.
I also don't want to put you on the spot, but do male pastors serve as prison chaplains in women's prisons in the PCA? Nancy used to be a prison chaplain and a prerequisite was ordination. Because deacons are ordained, she could serve in this ministry.
I'm so glad to hear that your church supports women who are called to serve in the above ministries. That is wonderful! All of those things require the call of God on your heart -- not do it just because a guy can.
WRT to ordination, I know the pain of having it denied to both a woman and a man in our church because our Episcopalian bishop didn't want to have more orthodox priests in our diocese.
Fortunately, we now are a part of an Anglican denomination and instead of Deacon Nancy and Deacon Kevin we have Mother Nancy and Father Kevin.
I also don't want to put you on the spot, but do male pastors serve as prison chaplains in women's prisons in the PCA? Nancy used to be a prison chaplain and a prerequisite was ordination. Because deacons are ordained, she could serve in this ministry.
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John Hendrickson
Middletown NJ
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Paige
PA